Interview with Thierry Jolif

 

Thierry Jolif is French musician and writer. He plays in "dark-folk" band LONSAI MAIKOV and he is Orthodox christian interested in various religious and philosophical topics - like Celtic mythology, cult of Mithra, integral traditionalism, christin mysticism etc. He played with BLEIBURG, DISSONANT ELEPHANT and other bands and he took part in compilations, for example "Mysteria Mithrae", "Credo in unum deum" and "Tribute to Koji Tano".

Welcome! I think that you are known mostly from your music. But you also write books and articles about tradition, philosophy, religion. Could you tell us more about that part of your activity?

For some peoples I think I am more known by writings, it all depends of peoples own interest ...

During some times the two activities has been closely separated, even if, obviously, things are not so closed. The first act of "writing" was around a project of magazine which quickly turned to be a book with subject the works of Julius Evola, mainly the influences of it on the underground/industrial scene.
The work came to turn into a book and was proposed to a French editor with help of a friend of mine, at the same time this friend, Christian Bouchet, told me of a collection of book by the French editor PARDES, which is the "historical" editor of Evola in French, and he told me that may be I could write something for them. At that time I was in a phase where I wanted to "perfect" my knowledge of the Celtic tradition, of course it was in a strictly "guenonian" vision. A chance for me was that, at that time the best scholar in Celtic domain, lived near to me, and he was both a "disciple" of Georges Dumézil and Guénon. So at that time I decided to take courses in the University of Rennes where there is courses in Celtic civilisation. That's how I started. At the beginning it was much more, in fact, in the way of Coomarwasamy's work that I consider my own. It was also a time were I was looking for a real, a living sense of spirituality, it was an intensive time of working, studying symbolism, philosophy, religions, metaphysics. It was not just a "scholar", a rationalist or scientific work, even if of course I was trying to do all these studies the most seriously as I can. It was also, more spiritually speaking, a time were I was seeking a traditional way through all these elements, this way led me to seek the way of the Grail, that was the common element of it all. Most of my books or articles have a Celtic subject, they did not really deals with philosophy or religion, outside of the Celtic era. However, at the same time, after my first book, I met the peoples involved into a French review called CONTRELITTERATURE. In this review I've published some articles which did not deal directly with Celtic themes but with a wider size of topics. CONTRELITTERATURE is a Christian mystic review, it helps me to build the links between my interest for esotericism, pre-Christian traditions and my faith, my spiritual inner fighting.

Why have you started to play music as Lonsai Maikov? Your albums are often published in martial/industrial/neofolk labels, so do you think that you are part of this so-called "scene" or "movement"? And why did you choose such name for your band?

Let us begin by the beginning : the name. This name has a strange story for us in the band, as for songs, in fact the real meaning, what we think being the real meaning appears only after much time, sometimes only years after the composition or the recording of a song, for this name it is just the same. When I did choose this name, the band didn't exist yet anywhere but inside my head. At this time I was a very young bass player in a little cold-wave band and I was discovering what we use to call "industrial" or experimental music, it was a world totally unknown to me but also my first real involvement into music. Before this music was a pleasure to me, something purely aesthetical, a romantic thing also. With "industrial music" I discovered that intellect could be really, truly, engaged into music, that music could be more than that, music could be something metaphysical, music could embody spirituality, politic ... That beauty but also ugliness could be used as true symbolical language. By this approach I have discover that metaphysic could have a real link with flesh, I mean with the entire reality of the body, of matter, that a "concilliatio oppositorum" was possible.
So it was when I was into this amazing state of mind that the name appear to me, I mean it really appear as a fact in my head. At the same period I was really into the life and work of the russian poet Maïakovski, so it is surely an influence, but I did not want that a possible direct influence in the name so I thought Maïkov was fine. Some months after I look into a dictionary and saw that Maïkov did exist in Russia. In fact it has a lot of special resonance ... and one day I've discovered that MAÏKOV was the family name of this great Russian saint known as Nil Sorskij ...so my way was made !! The decision to start music under this banner is exposed into my answer above ! Discovering “industrial” music I understand it was my way, it was a radical way and this radicalism pleased me !

When we are making music we do not think in terms of “industrial”, “dark-folk” or anything else ... what is important is Spirit and music. The British composer John Tavener said “Music is liquid metaphysic !” we are concerned with that not with fashions or movements or scene ... Of course in the history of LM this scene is important, its our “family”, sometimes its like a very far “family” but historically we could say that LM is part of it. Now, and since the beginning of our CDs acts, we try to open all these things, “Freedom from the tyranny of fashion” (to quote our friends of Death to the World) ... we can work with musicians from metal, from Hip-Hop, electronica, dance, pop ... no matter, only music and Spirit are important !
This decision was really important, I see the “industrial” scene as the most important “sign” of the reality of our age, of so-called “modernity” ! I don't think my own evolution would have been possible in another “scene”, it is personally, as Raymond Abellio said a true “inversion of inversion”, the negative (apophatic) radicalism of industrial music was the centre where I could met the “positive” radicalism of Christianity. There is a real and hard nihilism in the essence of industrial music, but for some peoples this kind of dark nihilism is better to start than the false ideologies, utopian doctrines ... which are just masks on the real “nihil” of a society, a world, without God.

You publish your writings in perennialist/traditionalist magazine "Sophia Journal". Could you describe us your Christian interpretation of integral traditionalism? Do you think that Christ can be considered as the greatest and fullest manifestation of Tradition in Guenonian/Evolian meaning of this word?

First I publish my writings in the magazine that want to publish it ... I don't know a lot of Christian publications which could be interested by an essay about Celtic deities or the Celtic Other World, and it seems perfectly normal to me. In the American perennialist magazine SOPHIA I've published two articles, one about Celtic tradition and one about the composer John Tavener but I've also publish an article into the TYR review of Michael Moynihan, some others into the cultural Italian journal TERRA INSUBRE, another into the very serious and scholar review OLLODAGOS (Belgium) ... in France I publish mainly into CONTRELITTERATURE. Now, it must be very clear that I have studied many subjects, political, spiritual, metaphysical ... it does not mean that I personally make mines all the interpretations of the current or system ! At a time I seriously study magic and occult systems, then Indo-Europeans cultures and religions, the Vedic philosophy, the Celtic tradition ... it does not mean that each time I make myself a believer into this doctrines. Of course it has an impact on music and that was what I was looking for, I'm not a scholar so I need to be truly into what I study and I want to go deep into it. That means that when I started to read Evola during a certain time after I red mostly exclusively Evola ... it has been the same for Crowley for example, and also about Guénon ... But I've never considered myself as a traditionalist nor a magist neither a paganist, these are all "systems"; philosophical modern system, but, and it has a link with your previous question, the vision peoples had of you depends of their own point of view. Because I am interested in symbolism (runes and so on), Indo-Europeans myths, magic initiation, cosmic religions ... then peoples start to think it is "my" philosophy, my "faith" and so on ...The reception was good in those movements because I'm interested in these subjects, because I think they are quite important to understand what we usually called the "modern world". In fact if you listen and look clearly to the first LM CD, the Christian mystic is already here ! The second one is "Our Lady of the Bones" ... and so on, it has never been a problem to me to understand pre-christians traditions and myths as pre-revelations !

Before we did our clear and serious confession of our faith in 2006, I can say that only one magazine asked us about Christianity ! Only once in thirteen years ! And it was a “satanist” magazine ! But we always answer to everyone because we had been shown that sometimes our acts and talks could lead some peoples to ask themselves and find “faith” ... We just humbly do what we feel we must do !

Could you describe us your Christian interpretation of integral traditionalism? Do you think that Christ can be considered as the greatest and fullest manifestation of Tradition in Guenonian/Evolian meaning of this word? What do you mean ? Integral traditionalism it is just a word, not a reality ! It is, at best, a philosophical current, not even a system ! Why should we make a Christian interpretation of it ? Of course we could, but I think it is useless ! I could say that, for me, concerning the Celtic tradition, the system of René Guénon is the best one to study its believes and sciences, it is also of use, a great help to learn more about Indian tradition, it is far better than most of the scholars or spiritualist works, and about Islam or Taoism too. But as for Evola's thinking we have here philosophical modern systems (even if those systems are not modernist) or doctrines as you want ! So Christ as not to be “considered” through the guenonian meaning of Tradition ! All I know is that Christ has come not to abolish but to accomplish, and not only the Moses Law, but every tradition ! For Orthodoxy the word “tradition” refers to the Greek paradosis which is linked by the Christian hermeneutic to the word Paradisos, “paradise” ! If there is a Golden Age it is only the one of Adam in Eden, paradise ! So, by the divine economy we, humans, can gain this state into the Baptise in the Name of the Most Holy Trinity ! So paradosis, the tradition, is all that link us to this unique possibility of deification ! Guénon, Schuon and so are useful for Occidental men spiritually lost (useless for a monk who has grown up in the paradosis of the Holy Fathers), their writings could be of use even if dangerous too for some. But we must not condemned those authors, they have been a way through the spiritual chaos of our times, but we must understand that their views are not articles of faith ! Seriously, does anyone think one could spiritually grow by according one's life to a Christian interpretation of Heidegger or Jung ?

Why are you Orthodox Christian? Have you been brought up in this faith?

It 's a bit complicated, as all human things ! No I've not been brought up in Orthodoxy. In fact I've been brought up in a kind of soft Catholicism, baptised and so on but with no involvement, it was a “social” evidence but nothing to do with faith, knowledge or even real life, I mean real religious life. As for many in my generation in France. This is may be why,even if I never really broke up with this “social religiosity”, I've feel the need to seek metaphysical answers elsewhere and so study many spiritual and religious questions ! Surely my studies of Guénon and Schuon lead me to question the Orthodox faith. One point they miss is that in Christianity the “person” is central and finally its a priest I've met that decide of my “conversion”. But I don't like this word, “conversion”, the Greek is far better, it has been a real metanoia, an inversion of inversion could I say. This meeting was not an “intellectual” thing in the modern meaning, it was really a meeting of the heart... since this time I try to be a real Christian, a real Orthodox ... for me it means : metanoia everyday ! May be I was seeking for some foggy concept as “Tradition” that you could not find anywhere but in books, I wanted the radical intelligence and beauty of the books but in my flesh and in my life ! I've found paradosis. More precisely I found that it was in me but that I could not actualise it in any other way than Orthodoxy, before I could be able to understand it I was already Orthodox or I wanted to be ! Now it is no more a question of Tradition, or metaphysic, its a question of spiritual realism, of Truth incarnated ! I talked before of the radicalism of “industrial” music, I think that Orthodoxy is also a true radicalism. Sometimes I know that I shock some peoples by saying that Christianity had always been the only true “avant-garde” !

It seems that modern France is very dechristianized country. In fact, the whole Western Europe seems to be very dechristianized and uprooted from any religion and from past. What's your opinion about present and future of continent and your country?

Not very optimistic in fact ! But, in a way, as a Christian I do not wait for any kind of “perfect and spiritual peace” on earth ...
In the strict point of view of Christian eschatology I know that this world lies in the shadow of evil, human politic is not able to transfigure the world, only can the Holy Spirit ! Was France and Europe really Christian in a far or near past ? I mean really Christian ? Its not so sure for me ! Of course we are sad to see what seems to us a loss of culture, of sensibility to intelligence ! Of course the “reign of quantity” is not a good thing and we try to defend from it at our own level. Of course we try with Lonsai Maïkov to “represent” some kind of “high” European culture even if sometimes, sincerely, even those who claim to defend it seem to be on the same level than those who say that “everything is OK”. For every time, every century, the problem is the same and the real problem of men is the Fall and then their denying of Incarnation, Death and Resurrection, Redemption, Salvation and deification ! What you call “dechristianization” is a fact but, sincerely, if European peoples have been such good Christians, I mean men and women on the path of apatheia and theosis should we know now such events ? The problems are not always external, coming from “the others” or from political choices ... the main problem is “internal” and concern each person. This phenomenon has a good side because Christians are now engaged in a kind of new “time of the catacombs” !
The world (I mean the world, not the Creation) had never been Christian ! Most of our nostalgia concerns morality, social facts,historical, education, cultural patrimony ... not the real and true spirituality which is not “of this world” !

Do you consider yourself to be a "monarchist"/"royalist"? Are you active in any monarchist movement, club, society?

Yes and no ! Perfection is not of this world ! It is more true in temporal or political sphere ! More than anything else I'm not an utopist ! Certainly I consider that monarchy (the government of one) is the less bad of all political system, even if the form, the style of each monarchy is deeply rooted into the “soul” of the peoples, I positively think it is, if not the best, the more able !

Actually in France I don't believe monarchist are quite numerous, however, we have a lot of small groups, clubs and even a political party ! I'm, we could say, close to some, but most of all I'm and feel close to persons more than to “movements” ... So I'm not really “active” ! I've tried, but its not my way ! I don't want to be enclosed into a systematic way of thinking. I like the writings and ideas of Maurras, but, as for Guénon, their “subjects” are wider than themselves. Maurras thought that what he called “integral nationalism” is the only actual way for monarchist but I think that if the logical goal of “integral nationalism” is the comprehension and the “defence” of monarchy when you reach the goal you have to transcend the, strictly speaking, moral and philosophical essence of “nationalism”, it's much more true for a Christian. Politically I always keep in mind that you must “give back to Caesar what belongs to Caesar” ! French monarchy is born by a traitor act to the Roman Empire, even if for centuries it has been best than anything else, however this act was a curse for the French kings and the French Revolution has been the prize to pay, unfortunately ... but even a great thinker as Joseph de Maistre has missed this point ! The French monarchs, as all true king, could have been “true Christians” or not ! The real “Christian king” is the one who never forget that he is king before all because he is a man “made in the image of God”, he is a sign. But every man is made “king and prophet” as soon as he makes real, as he actualise freely, the “image” of Christ, King of kings and High Priest. The true “Christian king” also can stay true only if he understand and consider that he is only “king”, that he has been made “ruler” on the “people of God” only in the political, the temporal... It's not so easy !

More than monarchist I could be seen as a “nostalgic” or the true Christian Roman Empire, what historians falsely called “Byzantine” ! Back to the concept of Guénon's Tradition, the symphony of powers of the True Roman Empire is much more into the “traditional” way than the dualism of medieval Occident that has divided Europe for so many years !! But, of course, Guénon missed this too !

Back to Lonsai Maikov: how many people are now engaged in this project? What instruments do you use?

Lonsai Maïkov is now a real duet ! But, in the same time, we want to open our musical experiments to every brother who want it ... we get a lot of project in this way !

We use every useful instruments ! From two pieces of wood to big computers passing by acoustic or electric guitars ...

There is your song "Blood of the Sun" on the V/A Mysteria Mithrae compilation (Athanor, 1996). Could you tell us more about this song and the reason for which you took part in this album?

It is a long time ago ...

This sampler was the first release of a friend ! One of my studies topic was the cult of Mithra ! And it was also a kind of “fashion” in the scene at this time. You know after the success of a certain Sol Invictus ... so at this time every musician in the scene was a “specialist” of Mithra's mysteries !! Funny if you think that Sol Invictus, as well as Sol Iustitiae, is a name of Christ ! However, we were very interested by this period of history, by the parallels between the two cults. At this time we shall notice that the Roman Mithra's cult was a bit artificial in fact, a mystery built to be a concurrent of Christians mysterion, something very different from the “original” Iranian cult of Mitra ! So it was a good figure of what happens now in Europe. It was also a good way for us to write a song that could be read on two different levels, as much of our songs in fact, but there we were thinking it was more evident ? Wasn't it ?

You have also put your song into Koji Tano Tribute. What do you think about the concept of industrial/noise music? Are you inspired by noise/power electronics artists?

We have done this song because we were really sad of the decease of K. Tano, we did not have contact with him, but he was a great artist ! As I told you before the first steps of LM in music were in the path of noise/industrial music, so yes it is important in our history as a band ! We can't say that today we are inspired by power electronics or so, but I'm always interested in all these sounds. One of my good friend was Jean-Marc Vivenza and we have often discussed on the metaphysical and philosophical basements of noise, industrial noises, he was a true “specialist” of historical “bruitisme” and also a scholar, specialised in Buddhist metaphysic.
On a strict philosophical level there is some interesting similarities between the theories of noise and the doctrine of nihil in oriental metaphysic. For our time there is, clearly, a kind of desire of gnosis in all these industrial/experimental music, a gnose for our time, the “dark” time ! Unfortunately these experiments miss the meeting of the Face of the divine, they ignore the One who is the only able to “show” us the True Face. Here exists a parallel between the oriental vision of the accomplishment of gnosis as an impersonal drowning into the divine and the immersion of self into the waves of sounds, or even in the idea that with the alchemy of noise one could, as Marinetti said, “pierce the sky above the stars”. Of course it is far more interesting than many materialist or new-age vision, but of all this stay on the level of a “rebellion” against what they know of Christianity, or often what they think is Christianity. All of these currents are born from the loss of a real comprehension of true Christian theology.

What is your opinion about so-called "postmodernism"? Do you agree that we simply live in "post-modern age" but "postmodernism" (as a philosophy) is only one of many answers for questions of this age (the democratic-liberal answer) and there are other reactions possible - for example: traditionalism or conservative revolution?

Till when are we living in modern age ? It is the main question ? For some peoples modernity starts with the “Renaissance”, for others with the French Revolution, for some with the grow of industries ... Some Orthodox brothers are still saying that all is the fault of the Great Schism ... but I would say that “modernity” or “post-modernity” are false problems in themselves ! They are philosophical “idols” ! As I previously told you, the “world” because of the Fall, because of men weaknesses is the problem, it doesn't matter if the society is modern, archaic or antic ! Men and women of spirituality, true Christians, true theologians they had always been a minority !!

Modernity is a social, a political, a cultural problem not a spiritual one ! I mean, of course, modernity has “invented” many traps on the road of those who want to involve themselves in a real spiritual life, may be modernity had cut the roots for an easier way to spirituality, but these traps, these deceptions had always existed for everyone in every time. We must not make confusion between the “social religiosity” of a country, of a nation (which is of course something positive, but which also had some very bad aspects) with the real and “concrete” tension of a true inner spiritual life ! Of course, a balance is needed and surely modernity as an historical fact has created a disequilibrium in it. So we must, sometimes, as Christians, as writers, artists, thinkers, theologians put the truth in front of the world. The real danger is the false anthropology, the false conception of nature in modernity ! I'm afraid that traditionalism or conservative revolution are not real answers. I mean, in my own opinion, that “traditionalism” is not “traditional” but precisely a modern reaction to some aspects of modernity. About C-R it is a reaction to the loss of what I mention, ancient education, past cultural habits, “national” or European patrimony, it is not a real philosophical current which good accomplish a real explosion of apophatic theology in the heart of modernity ! In particular the position of C-R in front of the technology seems more a problem than a real solution.

Yes there is other possible reactions, but the only one I see as really radical and really Christian is “be perfect as your Father is perfect” !

Do you know anything about Poland and did you have any contact with Poles?

I do not know much about Poland history, except for the more contemporary history, I know that history had been cruel to the people of Poland and I feel a great affection for this country. I have some contacts with Poles through the virtual crossing place of My Space, and I learn by this way more about Poland and its history.

Your last words for our readers:

Truth will set you free !

Thierry Jolif...

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